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Massimo
Johnson was considered very much a showman in his day and he didn't duck anyone. He easily beat the best of his time. Don't forget he took Bob Fitzsimmons in two rounds.
Given the distractions he had with racism, etc, he did extremely well. He was that dedicated to winning the title, he chased the champion all around the world until he got his chance at it.
Transplant Johnson to the modern age and he would still be a champion. He had a great physique that would have become mammoth with modern training and diet techniques. He was the first to use defense as a means of attack. He was a very accomplished boxer who also had power.
For Johnson to triumph with all the disadvantages he had, in particular his colour, he would have succeeded in any era. He not only had to beat the other fighters, he had to beat the bigots in the crowd, in the media, and in boxing administration. His only blemish was throwing the fight to Willard. But he had courage personified to do what he did in the era he did it.
Noam-
Jack Johnson was kinda boring to watch, but he owns impressive wins over the likes of Sam Mc Vey, Joe Jeannette and Sam Langford. And, even if James Jeffries was a little washed up when he beat him, he was still a very good heavyweight. Jack had problems against the middleweight Stanley Ketchel though. I think that Johnson is hard to judge because he fought before Christ and there is very little footage of him (at least as far as I know). Mike Tyson once said that Johnson was a genius in defense. An imaginary fight between an in prime Johnson and an in prime Tyson it's interesting. I think Johnson was way more used than Tyson to long fights,so Tyson would be the one with stamina problems. Could Johnson take a punch ? Pobably yes, since he took all Sam Mc Vey, Joe Jeannette and Sam Langford threw at him even if I doubt he ever faced a puncher like Tyson. Jack could probably punch with good power too.
Henry Armstrong, Ike Williams, Carlos Monzon. Three of the best, pound-for-pound.
Jack Johnson, maybe the most underrated fighter of all time. Over 100 years ago, yet he had the physique to match it with today's heavies, even though he never lifted a weight in his life. He was a gifted boxer with great defense. I'd have Jack in my Top 5 heavies of all time.
John-
I have never seen Willie Pep and Bepi Ros fight, so I can't judge them. But I know that Pep was a great champion and I imagine that Ros was also great. My favourite division is by far the heavyweight division (more than 90% of the fights I watch are among heavyweights) even if I like very much the middlewight division too (Leonard, Hagler, Hearns, Benitez, Duran up to De La Hoya, Quartey, Trinidad etc.). I also like very much the light heavyweight division (Moore,Foster etc.) and the cruserweights (Holyfield,Quawi etc.). Sometimes I watch the welterweights (Griffith,Duran,Buchanan) but I NEVER watch fights between boxers of particularly LIGHT-DIVISIONS (below the welterweight division).
That's how I rate the 3 fighters you mentioned I can judge.
1)Frazier
2)Chuvalo
3)Wepner
I don't think there's much doubt about that.
Noam-
I don't know anything about that story. All I know is that Foreman doesn't owe me money.
Massimo Giulio: Luigi Camputaro FROM ITALY and when he was HERE from Southington (Connecticut) I am friendly with -a lot- and he was on our Hartford Team prior to turning pro. YUP! Mitch Green was Consistently highly rated/low crawling. Dave Jaco, yup. That IS a "fact" that Jaco won vs Ruddock on a Flux. (It "Paid off" for him that night that he was able to stand his ground and stay in there. See..."History" will NEVER be able to take that away from the man, otherwise a pip-squeak! ha, ha!) That fight, by the way, was "spoken about" at Gyms around the world after it happened!
Weaver-Smith II I've just come from reading up on. I'll come back later there, though!
So...LETS see who knows there stuff and who does not. RATE 'em "all time"Joe Frazier, Willie Pep, George Chuvalo, Chuck Wepner, Bepi Ros. IF Jerry was included he would be -RATED third - I "like" this "list" because there IS NO ARGUMENT. All it does is seperate the kiddy "Boxing Afectionados" from the Grand-daddys! So, I'm -looking- for weigh-in's here!
Did George owe Joe money?
George Foreman ducked Joe Bugner
John-
I can tell you that I am not a banker and I am not an ex fighter. There are many Massimo Cini, but probably there is only one Massimo Giulio Leonardo Cini [my full name].
Yes, "Bonecrusher" Smith stopped Weaver in the first round in 1986.
Regarding the Jaco-Ruddock fight, that's what boxing records says about it:
"
Ruddock was winning the entire fight easily but ran out of gas in the last round. After this fight it was discovered the Ruddock had a respiratory ailment and that he might not be able to box again but fortunately Ruddock recovered.
"
Anyway it's still kinda surprising that Ruddock didn't knock him out in the early rounds. Before his fight with Lewis in 1992 Ruddock was the n.1 contender and probably [with Tyson in jail], the most feared man in the heavyweight division. His "smash" [that strange left hook-uppercut] that he invented was really a devastating punch. If you are sceptical, just watch the Ruddock-Dokes fight [it's on You Tube].
Mitch Green had an awesome amateur career [he won 4 consecutive New York Golden Gloves] but during his professional career he never beat a top contender. The best fighter he ever beat was the colossus Sammy Scaff (1.96/113 Kg). Mitch had a chuvalian chin though and neither Tyson nor Berbick were able to knock him down. Nobody knocked Green down in his entire professional career.
-Angelo- You remember JCarter and, it all "becomes Complication". I have nothing -really- against "Communism" per say. Bet you some of it better than other (some). But, it is a "Slap in the Face" what China done with Joey Cheeks. I stand on my previous statement. Noam, My Gram would need to be on a "long ago" Olympics (ha, ha!). She could swim - excellently! Of Course, "Olympic level" competition you seperate the big boys from the "children" (The Jerry Quarry's from the Dino Denis's!). See the US Olympic Team this year? Funny "Weak".It's a "long time" in coming, too (Their "admin" at USA/ABF is "junk" right now. Believe me, I "test" them & I know!) (By the way, in 85 I was head coach in little Brunei Darussalam, for one year. I'm a "drill" trainer/strictly).
HE*L No Donnie Long wasn't any "Top 10" ever! Top 20? Doubtful, but, "favor" sometimes plays A ROLL! Look at BoxRec.com Top Heavyweights and switch to their "all" category (Yours truly RATED Top 1500 "all" at 168 lbs. Not too-too- bad considering, really, I'm a welterweight. That is about page 74-73 of around 215 pages. Steve Collins there No 1. "all time". The "all" list includes the active list thus, it is always changing).
I would not RATE any DONNIE LONG in "Top three" of Tyson early career. Who'd Ty KO in 1 same boxer "owns" W. -vs- Razor? HE RATES above Donnie Long by 985 "years".
Mitch Green rates WAY/ WAY above any "Donnie Long". ("Robin" Givens isn't Robyn).
Pinklon I've met (in NYC Bert Sugar introduced us...)and I have MET Ribalta in a gym in Miami one time. Me and him shadow boxing alone together in the ring. after, we got to talking and i asked him his name. I Run into Terry Norris some times, too. Anyone hear of Brian Barbosa? WBC rated him 1st at 160 when Bernard was in his rein. I'm "matched" with Brian twice, but, fights fell out.
Massimo: That is YOU then, the "Banker" the ex-pro? Are you sure Smith Ko'd Mike Weaver in 1? If so, I've forgotten. The "last r." KO of the then undefeated Bruno is a Smith high-mark (of many).
Bet You Ron Lyle punched with more "Authority" than James. Oh! Bolt can run like no human ever before living on the Earth (but, can he run with a "football?" ha,ha!). Yeah: Phelphs is a "modern Wonder". In the other Sports I only "notice" a few people ("boxing" is my "religion"
. A guy like Michael Phelps, though, he brings Big Focus to his Sport.All the recent/ previous Olympics have a "great" focus on swimming and United States. Ok, a question to TEST! -smile- -Sequence- -Rate- Joe Frazier, Willie Pep, Chuck Wepner, George Chuvalo, Bepi Ros. Throw in Jerry's name here (Chuvalo beat him "odd" but, I think it is "safe" to say Jerry RATES above George Chuvalo).
I -wish- I could go more deep and hit people with email from the personal address side. Anyone writes to me a "touch" and I'll go into the Construction. Thank You. JQ site CAN -DEVELOPE- per Capasity. I work for a Dominos pizza chin in West Hartford, Connecticut (and "West Hartford" IS about THE STONGEST as in "Nice" community in Greater Central part of state). (Pizza Sales is THEATER!)
I agree with Noam! I respect everyone but I just don't want anything around my ass.
Good point, Angelo. But I think Sgt Carter and Rock Hudson would have entirely different motives in chasing. Personally, I'd run (much) faster if Rock was chasing me.
Noam: If Sgt. Carter were chasing Phelps, he'd swim even faster!
Do you want to see a great heavyweight in action ?
If that's the case,
take a look:
http://video.google.it/videoplay?docid=-4331439711960468169&ei=Hh6wSLmfOZz22gKVk6zYDA&q=francesco+damiani&vt=lf&hl=it
Phelps looks like Jim Nabors of Gomer Pyle fame. I imagine that Michael swims faster than Jim (particularly if Rock Hudson was chasing him!). 
Not only Michele Phelps can swim but I would dare to say that Usain Bolt can run!
Correction:
Quel ramo del lago di Como che VOLGE a Mezzogiorno, tra due catene non interrotte di monti...
Yesterday[ all my troubles seem so far away...] for me it's been the GERRIE COOTZEE-DAY, I wonder if for you it was the same.
There is a fan of his, who calls himself "hinduw", who has posted some of his fights.
What a strong and formidable fighter Gerrie Coetzee was! He got robbed against Renaldo Snipes in a George vs Ron fight, dominated Michele Dokes in 1983 and stopped Leon Spinks in just 1 round!!!!
Ain't that Wilt Chamberlain's stuff ?
Take a look:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=hinduw
Angelo-
Ciao Sonia, it's always nice to hear from ya!
I think already before Douglas, there were a few fighters who stepped into the ring and really tried to beat him. In particular I'm thinking of Frank Bruno (who had Tyson hurt in the first round of their first fight), Tucker and Pinklon Thomas (who had some good rounds). Actually, the first guy who was able to give Iron Mike problems was "Slow" Tillis (even if I think Tyson won with merit, by at least 2 points).
Tyson I think is pretty hard to rate among the heavyweights. In some fights he looked like the Coolidge of boxing, but if someone in some other planet only had the tape of his fights with Douglas, Danny Williams, Lewis and Mc Bride he probably wouldn't rate him among the top 50. Tyson's performance against Holyfield in 1996 I think was better than the one against Douglas as I think the fight was quite close in the first 10 rounds (and the headbutts didn't help Mike a bit). The second Holyfield-Tyson fight was a very sad page in boxing history.
Sonia: All is well here on the lettersw page---we're still enjoying boxing talk and remembering the brothers Quarry.
Massimo: I agree that Tyson was very impressive as a young fighter. He had the physical skills and power to be one of the greatest heavyweight champions ever. He didn't have the long term focus to achieve long term greatness. I give him credit for his many impressive knockout wins over the guys you mentioned and even over the old but always dangerous Larry Holmes. Tysons peak was his demolition of the terrified Michael Spinks. Tyson was a very intimidating, strong, fast and furious fighter up until he met Mr. Douglas. Mr. Douglas tamed Mike and showed the world that if you stand in front of a bully and hit him back, sometimes good things can happen. Why do you think Razor Ruddock had no fear of Tyson? It's because he saw Douglas stand there and trade punches and emerge as the KO winner, that's why. Tyson was never the same after that fight. In fact, I think Tyson's downfall started when he went "Hollywood" and had distractions in his life, like the marriage to Robyn Givens for example. Nothing wrong with a boxer being married, but there was way too much drama in that situation. Tyson lost focus and it showed.
HI ALL, HOW'S IT GOING? WE SURE MISS YOU DAD, UNCLE JERRY, AND ALL THE OTHERS
I was reading Donnie Long's record and he fought toe to toe with Renaldo Snipes in 1986. Donnie's knickname was "The master of disaster", which I think can be traslated "Il maestro del disastro", or even "Lo specialista del disastro", or even "L'esperto del disastro". I don't know if he was ever ranked in the first 10 or even 20, but however, I think he was a good fighter. Before winning the title I think Tyson fought at least 3 good heavyweights (Long,Ribalta and Frazier).
Green and Tillis were not bad fighters either. During his first reign he defended the title against many of the best boxers in the wordl at the time.
It's true that Tyson's career was somewhat disappointing and that he didn't achieve the results many fans expected, but we don't have to forget the good things he has done in the ring.
I've stood beside Bugner and let me tell you he is HUUUGE. I've also stood next to Foreman and, while he seemed very big, he wasn't as big as Bugner. I don't want to be punched by either of them, though.
Regards the Olympics, sure, some of it's exciting, but sports like Synchronised Swimming and Beach Volleyball - I mean, what a joke! If I didn't have to work, and had plenty of time to waste doing nothing but training for those sports, heck I'd be an Olympian, too. So would John's grandma.
I'll be happy when the Olympics are finished.
John/Massimo: I don't agree with the notion of boycotting the Olympics. This nonsense started with Jimmy Carter keeping our team out of the Moscow 1980 Olympics because they invaded Afghanistan and of course, the Soviets payback was boycotting our Los Angeles Olympics four years later. To me, the Olympics should be a friendly competition among citizens of nations---by playing sports in this spirit, people find that regardless of their governments, they have more positive things incommon than differences among eachother. In fact, I'll go as far as saying that in 1972, when the Palestinian Liberation Organization murdered the Jewish athletes, THEY wrongfully politicized the Olympics. Four years later, Jimmy Carter actually piggybacked on their concept by using the Olympics as a political tool. Instead of taking it as an opportunity to slam the PLO and say that the Olympics are not political, Carter made them more politial. Certainly, I can find a lot of things I don't agree with as far as President Bush goes---but I think he was right to attend these Olympics, as he put it, to "show my respect for the PEOPLE of China and cheer on the U.S, team!" For two lousy weeks, let's come together in friendly competition instead of laboring over our many, many differences.
John-
I agree with you, comunism is c**p. It's s**t not only because it never worked in any part of the wordl, but because it's just wrong from a logical point of you. It's not a mere accident that comunism never worked. The reason is that comunism is illogical c**p. I'm not saying that Capitalism is the Paradise, but it's much,much...Much better than Comunism.
I have seen "Bonecrusher" Smith fight a few times and I really believe he was a devastating puncher. He stopped Witherspoon and Weaver in 1 round, knocked out dangerous Jeff Sims in 1 round with a body punch and knocked down Ruddock in the 2th round in a losing effort. Who punched harder than him in the 80s ? Probably Tommy Gunn (even if I think he turned pro in the late 80s) but not many others.
I'm not saying that Bugner was a particularly hard hitter, I am just saying that his power is underrated. He was often very cautious but when he decided to punch he could be dangerous. He stunned Joe Frazier quite bad at the end of the 10th round.
Regarding Donnie Long, I am not saying that he was a great fighter; my point is that this guy was a respectable heavyweight who lasted the distance with Tate and Broad. The way Tyson distroyed him was quite impressive. The speed and power of some of the punches Tyson landed that night was amazing. I could see Donnie Long last at least a few rounds against lesser punchers than Tyson, like Ali for instance. Ali would have outboxed the hell out of Long, but I don't think he would have knocked him out in 1 round.
I am in at your site again today. The last time I was able to visit was six-days-back. Mark Phelps is quite "quite" the swimmer but, I'll tell you one thing about this Olympics, that I truly believe. SINCE the Chinese "banned" the American Speed Skater Joey Cheeks for "Political" reasons the only "Heros" of these games other than the Chinese or the other "Commmunist" Nations are the Athletes who have withdrawn out of Protest. Anyone? "Principles" are being forever "lost" in our world. -I PROTEST myself but, won't here go into it-
John Denis record was a "highly-unusually-WEAK" record constructed. I mean, it was "Academy award winning WEAK (Reverse)". Got it? And, Massimo, to call James Bonecrusher Smith one of the great punchers of his era. Where did you read that? In a Comic book someplace? He wqs "formidable" there is no doubt but, the Statement is NOT ACCURATE. (Where is Bepi Ros these days?) And (You know what's coming NEXT ha, ha!) Joe Bugner could PUNCH! (Let me STOP so as I have time to "fall down""roll" then "stop laughing!". Maybe -once- he punched -someone- good but. Bugner added "colour" to his -day- My Gram MacKenzie was a "harder puncher" than Joe Bugner ever was. Donnie Long - I'll look at his record but, Tyson was on a "weak Street" in the early part of his career. Yeah - Charley Powell - "football". In the "boxing" he "did things" but, only the serious -fan- is gonna pick-that-up.
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